MAY 25, 2011 SPECIAL MEETING

 

SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING

May 25, 2011

6:00 pm

The Town Board met this date as per Resolution adopted on May 11th at a Special Town Board meeting, with the following members present:  Supervisor Stanley, Councilman Bartlett, Bernstein, Jordan and Malloy

 

Pledge of Allegiance to our flag

Roll Call

Public Notice

NOTICE OF SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that the Town of Shandaken Town Board will hold a Special Town Board Meeting on May 25, 2011 at 6:00 pm.  The Purpose of this meeting will be to discuss issues within the Town.    This meeting will be held at the Town Hall, 7209 Route 28, Shandaken, New York.

Dated:    May 11, 2011 BY ORDER OF THE TOWN BOARD

Laurilyn J Frasier, RMC/MMC

Councilman Bernstein – Announcements

Boy Scout Troop 60 will hold their annual yard sale on May 28th and 29th .

 

The Memorial Day parade will be on Main Street, line up will be in front of Gormleys’ at 10:30am.

 

Supervisor Stanley

Good evening. The Town Board has convened this meeting in order to try and find resolution to a number of issues in the Mt. Tremper area.

Over 7 years ago, Hanover Farms started operation of a Roadside Stand on Rte. 28 in Mt. Tremper. Since then it has grown beyond the 100 square feet outlined in its permit application. Over the past 7 years the Town Board, Planning Board and Zoning Board members have each tried to find a solution to this dilemma. No one on this Town Board has made any effort, nor is looking, to close down Hanover Farms. It is easy to recognize the benefits such a business offers to the community.  No one has ever filed a formal complaint about this operation only verbal accusations and assaults have barraged the Town and Hanover Farms for their continued operation…until Monday. More on that in a minute.

Over the past few years several attempts have been made to either amend the current law or create a new law to allow these operations to continue, but to no avail as we have found ourselves in adversarial conflicts over area, limits on lighting, parking, etc. In an effort to come to some type of consolidated conclusion, last year the Town Board held joint meetings with the Planning Board, to no avail, again. The Planning Board was having issue with another business usage allowed in residential neighborhoods, which some believe, weaken the strength of zoning properties residential if allowed to continue. Other questions arose of the ability of the Town, recognizing long-standing commercial uses within the same area, to preserve the commercial aspect of those existing properties. We are not allowed by law to spot zone, so the only way is to consider re-zoning or extending the existing Highway Business zone that currently ends on the corner of Rtes 212 and 28. That was last fall.

The issue sat, with no resolve. We had been asked to look at this again at several meetings. Under the idea that 1) the Planning Board would not like a law allowing further business operations in residential zones and 2) the area in question, by our recognition, has been occupied by multiple business operations for decades.

We felt we wanted to get the public involved. Again, the Town Board is not ready to jump in any direction and we recognize that any effort will take time as we suffice with all the legal proceedings that will need to take place. Thus, we are here tonight.

 

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The Zoning Extension language came from several casual conversations over the past few months between board members. First, we looked at the south side of Rte. 28 and going to Hudler Road on the north side of 28 across from Tonche Transit. Questions arose on how that would preserve Alyce & Rogers and Car Craft. Being hesitant to zone the entire open field Gina Reilly, the Zoning Officer and I researched mixed uses throughout the Town. There currently are other Highway Business zones that extend from 200 – 300 feet onto adjoining Residentially zoned properties, so we split the difference at 250 feet. We are not dictating this policy and we have been and continue to be open to comments.  We also had conversations on the shortfalls of previous laws and tried address that, again, incorporating comments from Town Board members. We withdrew the 100 square foot restriction and inserted language allowing 49% of the available developable area under the Bulk Regulations to be applied, essentially halving the developable area and understanding that under the Bulk Regulations Properties may only develop anywhere from 10 to 25% of their total property, depending on what zone they are located. We also placed language to promote New York State goods, as best we felt could be enforced. It also allows for the sale of other produce from other areas, with out the need for applying for a variance. I don’t see the need to create a law with the intention and understanding that in order for a business to be sustainable, they would have to vary from the law we are creating, why not simplify it so they can be sustainable under the law without a variance. That’s not to deny the availability of variances. Just common sense.

Councilman Bartlett has submitted some other suggestions for laws, which I’m sure she’ll explain.

Finally, this past Monday we received a formal complaint from some neighboring property owners, to which Gina will be responding within the next few days. I had asked the councilmen if they wished to speak tonight before we move to public comments, but know that with the looming threat of litigation we are trying to very careful of our language here tonight. All the council will still be allowed time if they wish. We had no intention of making any resolution tonight and until this current issue is resolved, I am hesitant to move any action forward, at this time. We are simply trying to engage the public in conversations that have been taking place and to gauge some sense of direction.

I know many people are here tonight and feel very strongly in their favor on this issue. I’d ask that each of us be respectful to one another. I would also like to highlight that the Town Board will be more responsive to thoughtful concise comments specific to the issue as opposed to emotional rantings or blatantly false accusations. I’d like to now turn this over to any council members that wish to make comment.

Councilman Bernstein – No Comment

 

Councilman Jordan – The resolution of this issue and any other particular issues is well, well over due.  I have received numerous letters, phone calls, e-mails and individual conversations.    One of the most constant messages I have received is the positive service that the Farm Stands do provide to our town.  It has been posed to us, after numerous meetings trying to formulate a farm stand law, that rezoning a portion of Route 28 may be an option to resolve this issue, but that is just one of the options and that is why we are here tonight.  Personally, we should look at all of our options and find something that is agreeable to this board and finally resolve this ongoing issue.

 

Councilman Malloy – Rezoning a section of Route 28 is a touchy subject, we all love the farm stand, but most of the e-mails that came in were against rezoning, but for the farm stand.   Most feel that it is very drastic to rezone it, what is going to happen later on, will there be storage units on it, will it go farther up Route 28, or is it just going to be in Mt. Tremper, is it only 250 feet or will it go back at some point.  I would like to see something come together without rezoning Route 28.

 

Councilman Bartlett – I agree with what Tim said, I did submit another Farm Stand Law or a small business law, I think we should look at what you put in, what I put in and if some other ideas come up and refer it back to the Planning Board because they have the technical knowledge and see if we can’t come up with something that is good for the whole town.

 

 

 

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Supervisor Stanley then read the following letters and e-mails.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Speakers in order of Sing up

Alan White – Executive Director of the Catskill Center, we are the organization that promotes scenic byways in the Catskills in addition to some other organizations, I think that we have to be very clear about one aspect of this, but first, I am very encouraged about all of the e-mails that mention scenic byways, I think that it is a great project.   Let us be clear about one thing, the scenic byway does not have a regulatory of oversight over this issue; this is strictly a local home rule issue.    When you say that this discussion we are having jeopardizes the scenic byway, I think that is probably an overstatement.  Your ability to have this discussion about the rezoning and the farm stand issue, is not a conflict of the scenic byway, that is probably an overstatement.   The one e-mail said let us wait until the scenic byway is over, you have to look at the time frame.  The Catskill Center along with seven other municipalities, anticipates they will submit the nominations to the New York State DOT (Department of Transportation) in late July and then there is a revision process.  So realistically the time frame could be at least six months or more away before we get an official designation.  The key is there is only one regulatory impact of a scenic byway is that it prohibits any new off premise signs, which essentially are bill boards.

We ask that the Town Board consider the scenic byway, but in no way will it restrict any zoning issue.

 

Councilman Bernstein asked if that was all bill boards or just new ones.   Mr. White replied saying that just new ones, and Councilman Bartlett added that we are in the Catskill Park, and Mr. White said that was right, there are not suppose to be bill boards in the Catskill Park, but He did not know how much enforcement we had.

 

Kathy Nolan – has lived in Mt. Tremper for over 20 years and I am now living in Allaben.  I agree with everyone in opposition with this zoning change.  I was asked by Chet Kowtowski, president of the local Ashokan, Papacton chapter of Trout unlimited to read some of his comments into the record.  These are his personal comments, Chet said, “This proposed zoning runs along the state forest that is wild and scenic, so this parcel is bordered by state forest on two sides.  It is also along the Esopus creek where this stretch is the only stretch of the lower river that does not have roads on both sides.”  The chapter will be addressing the issue, just in terms of how important, that stretch of the Esopus creek is that borders the proposed rezoning.  In listening to the comments I feel that it is possible that we all live in harmony, these comments came in a very constructive way, they indicate that people want increased economic opportunities and they can be done in a way that does not harm our scenic beauty and harm the region.  There have been some things that have been said that I don’t agree with, Mr. White saying that the rezoning will not harm the scenic byway, a scenic byway is scenic, so let’s have it scenic.  She went on to say that the Hamlet designations by the DEP back in the 90’s and were included in the comprehensive plan and now obsolete because the Town Board passed a resolution designating such and as I understand it, the DEP adopted that.   When I think of a Hamlet, I think of Pine Hill or Phoenicia where there is Hamlet business zones, if you called every community a hamlet then you would have Hamlet business zones all through the town and the plan was not meant for that.   Our zoning is already very generous, farm stands are aloud, maybe not as expansive as they want, hotels, motels are aloud in a residential zone and home occupations both class one and class two and class two are aloud outside the home.    She went on to say that farm stands should be included in Home occupations to keep within the character of the plan.

 

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Patricia Ellison –  I live in Phoenicia, I am attorney and as most of you know I have represented Hanover Farms, so I want to state that on the onset.  My comments are not directly directed at Hanover Farms.  What I want to talk about is the area to be rezoned in and around Mt. Tremper.  I think that the Town Board and the community should consider this on its’ own merit quite frankly without regard the impact that it might have on Hanover Farms and Alyce & Rogers Stand although true fully it would help both of them.  What we need to look at in my opinion is what is already present on the land in the Mt. Tremper area.  Right now we have commercially zoned land in Mt. Tremper, but it is not on Route 28, it actually runs from the intersection of Route 28 and Route 212 down to Wittenberg Road.   That is all commercial and there is only one automotive business there unless you class the Post Office as a business and the rest is residential on very small lots with virtually no parking, but you could have someone come in there and open a business and it would be legal.  No go around the corner on Route 28 and there are Farm Stands, motels and a very scenic bus barn that is commercial now does that make a lot of sense. I feel that the community needs additional land to be zoned commercial that could be developed within reasonable limits and I feel that the Town Board through zoning amendments could ensure that we don’t get big box stores or strip malls.  Thank you.

 

Richard Schaedle – Pine Hill, I just want to say that I agree with all the letters that you read in opposition to the rezoning.  I remember when 28 was put in and it was put in to avoid the Hamlets so that the business would be retained in the Hamlets and 28 would be a conduit to get from New York City, Long Island, Kingston to the Catskills, it made the travel time at least a ½ hour difference between Kingston and Pine Hill and also the speed limit was 55 miles per hour and look what has happened it is now 45 miles per hour in some places, is this going to happen in Shandaken also.  Is it going to increase the time again to go to Kingston and then there are the safety factors.  Thank you.

 

Michael Ruane – of Shandaken and he is speaking in opposition of the new zoning change.  I am really asking the Town Board for prudence.  I am an engineer and I have worked with developers and when zoning changes are proposed they are usually moving towards a more liberal direction and I think we have no better example of that then the 10 year problem with the farm stand pushing against the current residential zoning.  To move to a Business Highway B zoning moves more pressure towards commercial development along this strip.  Mt. Tremper sees about 7,000 cars per day, Pine Hill sees about half that, this is our gateway, this is the first impression of Shandaken.  It is the most attractive place for commercial development, which would lead us down a road not consistent with the town, our sense of Hamlets or of the scenic byway designation.  I would urge you to be very cautious before going forward with this change, I think we have other means at our disposal to deal with farm stand issues and it would be wise to look further at those.

 

Tom Rinaldo – This is about what makes sense for Shandaken, it is not about farm stands, if it was an issue about farm stands, It seems that most of the residents are pretty much in favor of what both farm stands are doing, there are some disagreements around the edges, but there are ways to get around that to get things done.    He said that when you are too close to something you really don’t see it.  Shandaken is a special place, and we do not need commercial development on Route 28, we need people to discover our Hamlets.   He also said that when they came here from California they looked in many states and Hamlets when they found Phoenicia.

 

 

 

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Janet Klugiewicz –  I would like to talk about the scenic byway designation and the fact that it is in danger by this zoning change.  Just because it does not preclude that change does not mean we should do something.  Just because you can do something does not mean you aught, to do it.  There are two farm stands now, a bus barn and 2 motels and you don’t take a strip and degrade all of it because you have five businesses, we have a lot there that is worth preserving.  We have to realize what a gamete is, it is something really special that we should cherish, because once it is gone, we cannot get it back and there are other things that once they are gone you can’t get them back, I think you all know what I mean.  So, I a line myself for those that want to preserve and not see a zoning change.

 

Karen Thomas-Malloy – I live in Mt. Tremper and I support the farm stand as many of us do, I live across the street from the farm stand so it directly affects me, we only bought our home a year ago.  I support the farm stand there has to be a way to make it work, but I am on the fence about this zoning change, because I do not want to see another gas station, 7-11 or another bus garage some day.  We know that we have a farm stand rule and we know that Al (Mr. Higley) pushed the limits of it, but what he has there is also a tourist attraction, when people come to visit, the first place they want to go is to the farm stand and they are coming from New Jersey and Connecticut, so this is already a draw and part of that gateway they spoke about.   May be there is a way we can make his space work and change the residential area to commercial.  Thank you.

 

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Eric Hansen – I live in the Town of Shandaken and I am for the zone change to so that all of the businesses in that area can come into compliance.  I don’t know what everyone is afraid of, it is not going to change the scenic byway designation, we have already heard from that gentleman.  I am tired of the people saying that the beauty in Shandaken is along 28, why don’t they go up the hills, go to the rivers and out in the woods, they only see out their windows.  A byway is fine, I love it, but economic time here are bad, there is over 50 mortgage foreclosures in Shandaken and that is more then Kingston, it is not right, and I urge the Town Board to work with the Planning Board on the zone change they are trying to start.

 

Zdenek Marek – Remember Long Island, I bought a home in Long Island in 1964, it was forests and nice meadows, the benefactors, developers and real estate managed to change the zoning and you know what they paved over the Long Island, people go there, there are not trees in site.   Look, Phoenicia is the most beautiful town in the whole United States.

 

Marueen Nagy – I am writing to express my opposition to the rezoning of Route 28 in Mt. Tremper to Commercial.  I believe that such an action would be wrong for Shandaken for several reasons.

1.        It threatens to damage a precious resource the scenic beauty of Route 28 by inviting commercial development.

2.       It would further drain activity from surrounding Hamlets

3.       It would replace a spectacular day in Shandaken with possibly a mediocre one, if commercial strips in Boiceville, Ashokan, and West Hurley are any indication

There is significant opposition in the community to rezoning, this by its’ self is reason for you to hesitate and tread very carefully in considering a dramatic change which would be difficult to undo.  In a recent postal patrons letter Mrs Gailes refers to, “opponents to change” the people that she refers to I bet are rather supporters of change as long as it is a direct change in line with the express wishes of the Town, the Comprehensive Plan to encourage development in the Hamlets.  Please be mindful of your duties as elected officials to follow the intent of the comprehensive plan and preserve current zoning.  Thank you.

 

David Lionel – Well, I was hoping we would have a win, win everybody likes their farm stands and their function, but then there was 98% of those e-mails that expressed the danger of rezoning, so it sounds like a farm stand law is about as far as it ought to go and seems though that could be crafted in a way to make Al happy and I don’t know if the other farm stand is going to survive, medical reasons, who knows what that means.    We all have the same ideas here, lets’ get this done, it should be a win, win, you have good concepts, but where are they going after 7 years.

 

James Krueger – I live and work in Shandaken, I chaired the now debunked economic committee, as well

as the Central Catskills collaborative and the Pine Hill Main Street initiative, I am CFO of the Ashokan

foundation, a member of the Children’s’ Advocacy Network and recently declined an invitation to be

part of the MARK project because I am already doing too much.  I also sit on the Recreation Committee

and I have a hand in the success of the Pine Hill Community Center, a true grass roots community

organization.  I only say this because I am an active, experienced and informed citizen.  I am not here to

represent any of these organizations but take sole responsibility or my comments as a law abiding

citizen of this town.  I would like to say a few things about what the issue this evening is about and what

it is not about.    First, it is not about the farm stand, it has nothing to do with farm stands and

everything to do with a radical change in zoning.  The change that both flies in the face of both the

Town’s and the county’s comprehensive plan.  Taking what I believe to be wise and sensible ques from

what community plans have long known both areas call for the development of the areas already zoned

commercial.   Especially our main streets, first and foremost.   The County is currently working very

closely with two communities  Phoenicia and Pine Hill, in order for these communities to develop

strategic plans that will help them grow as commercial centers and as tourist destinations.    Diluting

these hubs by expanding commercial zoning along Route 28 is not only unwise but antithetical  to these

two communities whose endeavors  with the Town’s support , will benefit everyone.   He went on to say

that  making Route 28 Commercial would be a mistake and ruin the pristine beauty of the area.     He

also said that Al should have started his business a 100 feet up the road in a commercial area.   He also

had comments on Mrs. Gailes’ letter.

 

Alfred Higley Jr. –  I would like to thank everyone for coming and thank the Town Board for having this

meeting.   I want to go back to want Tim (Councilman Malloy) had said,  that he thinks there can be a

compromise, unfortunately we sat down with the last Town Board and went through this, we sat down

and we hacked out a deal, with a different administration, but some of the same board members are

here.  The deal they made then, they reneged on.   They did not do that deal, they went and did

something on their own.    I think that Tim, you and Doris (Councilman Bartlett) are right, I think this is a

simple deal, I think we can come to a compromise, we will give it one more try.

 

 

 

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Sofie Franzin – I do come from Long Island, which is totally wiped out, they have paved over the Pine

Barrens.   I don’t understand why the issue of two farm stands has come to this.  I shop there regularly,

some ladies like to shop there because Mr. Higley will throw in an extra banana.    I feel that this is a

simple matter and should not have come to this.  I also feel that rezoning is a devastating mistake.

All I have to say is, please people let’s  pull it together and not kill something that is really working.

 

Eve Smith – I have been listening very closely.  I think that everyone wants to preserve the beauty, and I

think it is a little far fetched that big box stores, etc. will move in.  I am here to represent a lot of people

that are here and make their living here and some by the skin of their teeth.    I think we need more jobs

and more business here.   I would like to remind you that Lucky Chocolates tried to open a business here

and was denied.  That would have been a nice business to have here.    We can make this a destination

with nice businesses and more jobs for the health of the community.

 

Patricia Ruane – Shandaken,  I appreciate the conversation, I just want to speak to Alfred’s point and to

the sentiment that will work to find a solution that will be the best for the Town and for the farm stand.

This should be a win, win and not a compromise.  The Board should be very  clear and courages about

the values that it will put forward.   It should not be a compromise.

 

Susan Oyama – Highmount,   I have a question, speaking to Al, you said that rezoning would benefit both

farm stands.  May I ask, how will it benefit Alyce and Rogers?    Supervisor said that she could speak to

Ms. Ellison after the meeting.

 

Supervisor Stanley – Thank you for coming out tonight, I am sure you have listened to everyone’s’

comments and everyone had stated their comments.  Thank you everyone for being civil tonight.

 

Motion by Supervisor Stanley to close meeting before it starts to fall apart, seconded by Councilman

SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING

May 25, 2011

6:00 pm

The Town Board met this date as per Resolution adopted on May 11th at a Special Town Board meeting, with the following members present:  Supervisor Stanley, Councilman Bartlett, Bernstein, Jordan and Malloy

 

Pledge of Allegiance to our flag

Roll Call

Public Notice

NOTICE OF SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that the Town of Shandaken Town Board will hold a Special Town Board Meeting on May 25, 2011 at 6:00 pm.  The Purpose of this meeting will be to discuss issues within the Town.    This meeting will be held at the Town Hall, 7209 Route 28, Shandaken, New York.

Dated:    May 11, 2011 BY ORDER OF THE TOWN BOARD

Laurilyn J Frasier, RMC/MMC

Councilman Bernstein – Announcements

Boy Scout Troop 60 will hold their annual yard sale on May 28th and 29th .

 

The Memorial Day parade will be on Main Street, line up will be in front of Gormleys’ at 10:30am.

 

Supervisor Stanley

Good evening. The Town Board has convened this meeting in order to try and find resolution to a number of issues in the Mt. Tremper area.

Over 7 years ago, Hanover Farms started operation of a Roadside Stand on Rte. 28 in Mt. Tremper. Since then it has grown beyond the 100 square feet outlined in its permit application. Over the past 7 years the Town Board, Planning Board and Zoning Board members have each tried to find a solution to this dilemma. No one on this Town Board has made any effort, nor is looking, to close down Hanover Farms. It is easy to recognize the benefits such a business offers to the community.  No one has ever filed a formal complaint about this operation only verbal accusations and assaults have barraged the Town and Hanover Farms for their continued operation…until Monday. More on that in a minute.

Over the past few years several attempts have been made to either amend the current law or create a new law to allow these operations to continue, but to no avail as we have found ourselves in adversarial conflicts over area, limits on lighting, parking, etc. In an effort to come to some type of consolidated conclusion, last year the Town Board held joint meetings with the Planning Board, to no avail, again. The Planning Board was having issue with another business usage allowed in residential neighborhoods, which some believe, weaken the strength of zoning properties residential if allowed to continue. Other questions arose of the ability of the Town, recognizing long-standing commercial uses within the same area, to preserve the commercial aspect of those existing properties. We are not allowed by law to spot zone, so the only way is to consider re-zoning or extending the existing Highway Business zone that currently ends on the corner of Rtes 212 and 28. That was last fall.

The issue sat, with no resolve. We had been asked to look at this again at several meetings. Under the idea that 1) the Planning Board would not like a law allowing further business operations in residential zones and 2) the area in question, by our recognition, has been occupied by multiple business operations for decades.

We felt we wanted to get the public involved. Again, the Town Board is not ready to jump in any direction and we recognize that any effort will take time as we suffice with all the legal proceedings that will need to take place. Thus, we are here tonight.

 

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The Zoning Extension language came from several casual conversations over the past few months between board members. First, we looked at the south side of Rte. 28 and going to Hudler Road on the north side of 28 across from Tonche Transit. Questions arose on how that would preserve Alyce & Rogers and Car Craft. Being hesitant to zone the entire open field Gina Reilly, the Zoning Officer and I researched mixed uses throughout the Town. There currently are other Highway Business zones that extend from 200 – 300 feet onto adjoining Residentially zoned properties, so we split the difference at 250 feet. We are not dictating this policy and we have been and continue to be open to comments.  We also had conversations on the shortfalls of previous laws and tried address that, again, incorporating comments from Town Board members. We withdrew the 100 square foot restriction and inserted language allowing 49% of the available developable area under the Bulk Regulations to be applied, essentially halving the developable area and understanding that under the Bulk Regulations Properties may only develop anywhere from 10 to 25% of their total property, depending on what zone they are located. We also placed language to promote New York State goods, as best we felt could be enforced. It also allows for the sale of other produce from other areas, with out the need for applying for a variance. I don’t see the need to create a law with the intention and understanding that in order for a business to be sustainable, they would have to vary from the law we are creating, why not simplify it so they can be sustainable under the law without a variance. That’s not to deny the availability of variances. Just common sense.

Councilman Bartlett has submitted some other suggestions for laws, which I’m sure she’ll explain.

Finally, this past Monday we received a formal complaint from some neighboring property owners, to which Gina will be responding within the next few days. I had asked the councilmen if they wished to speak tonight before we move to public comments, but know that with the looming threat of litigation we are trying to very careful of our language here tonight. All the council will still be allowed time if they wish. We had no intention of making any resolution tonight and until this current issue is resolved, I am hesitant to move any action forward, at this time. We are simply trying to engage the public in conversations that have been taking place and to gauge some sense of direction.

I know many people are here tonight and feel very strongly in their favor on this issue. I’d ask that each of us be respectful to one another. I would also like to highlight that the Town Board will be more responsive to thoughtful concise comments specific to the issue as opposed to emotional rantings or blatantly false accusations. I’d like to now turn this over to any council members that wish to make comment.

Councilman Bernstein – No Comment

 

Councilman Jordan – The resolution of this issue and any other particular issues is well, well over due.  I have received numerous letters, phone calls, e-mails and individual conversations.    One of the most constant messages I have received is the positive service that the Farm Stands do provide to our town.  It has been posed to us, after numerous meetings trying to formulate a farm stand law, that rezoning a portion of Route 28 may be an option to resolve this issue, but that is just one of the options and that is why we are here tonight.  Personally, we should look at all of our options and find something that is agreeable to this board and finally resolve this ongoing issue.

 

Councilman Malloy – Rezoning a section of Route 28 is a touchy subject, we all love the farm stand, but most of the e-mails that came in were against rezoning, but for the farm stand.   Most feel that it is very drastic to rezone it, what is going to happen later on, will there be storage units on it, will it go farther up Route 28, or is it just going to be in Mt. Tremper, is it only 250 feet or will it go back at some point.  I would like to see something come together without rezoning Route 28.

 

Councilman Bartlett – I agree with what Tim said, I did submit another Farm Stand Law or a small business law, I think we should look at what you put in, what I put in and if some other ideas come up and refer it back to the Planning Board because they have the technical knowledge and see if we can’t come up with something that is good for the whole town.

 

 

 

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Supervisor Stanley then read the following letters and e-mails.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Speakers in order of Sing up

Alan White – Executive Director of the Catskill Center, we are the organization that promotes scenic byways in the Catskills in addition to some other organizations, I think that we have to be very clear about one aspect of this, but first, I am very encouraged about all of the e-mails that mention scenic byways, I think that it is a great project.   Let us be clear about one thing, the scenic byway does not have a regulatory of oversight over this issue; this is strictly a local home rule issue.    When you say that this discussion we are having jeopardizes the scenic byway, I think that is probably an overstatement.  Your ability to have this discussion about the rezoning and the farm stand issue, is not a conflict of the scenic byway, that is probably an overstatement.   The one e-mail said let us wait until the scenic byway is over, you have to look at the time frame.  The Catskill Center along with seven other municipalities, anticipates they will submit the nominations to the New York State DOT (Department of Transportation) in late July and then there is a revision process.  So realistically the time frame could be at least six months or more away before we get an official designation.  The key is there is only one regulatory impact of a scenic byway is that it prohibits any new off premise signs, which essentially are bill boards.

We ask that the Town Board consider the scenic byway, but in no way will it restrict any zoning issue.

 

Councilman Bernstein asked if that was all bill boards or just new ones.   Mr. White replied saying that just new ones, and Councilman Bartlett added that we are in the Catskill Park, and Mr. White said that was right, there are not suppose to be bill boards in the Catskill Park, but He did not know how much enforcement we had.

 

Kathy Nolan – has lived in Mt. Tremper for over 20 years and I am now living in Allaben.  I agree with everyone in opposition with this zoning change.  I was asked by Chet Kowtowski, president of the local Ashokan, Papacton chapter of Trout unlimited to read some of his comments into the record.  These are his personal comments, Chet said, “This proposed zoning runs along the state forest that is wild and scenic, so this parcel is bordered by state forest on two sides.  It is also along the Esopus creek where this stretch is the only stretch of the lower river that does not have roads on both sides.”  The chapter will be addressing the issue, just in terms of how important, that stretch of the Esopus creek is that borders the proposed rezoning.  In listening to the comments I feel that it is possible that we all live in harmony, these comments came in a very constructive way, they indicate that people want increased economic opportunities and they can be done in a way that does not harm our scenic beauty and harm the region.  There have been some things that have been said that I don’t agree with, Mr. White saying that the rezoning will not harm the scenic byway, a scenic byway is scenic, so let’s have it scenic.  She went on to say that the Hamlet designations by the DEP back in the 90’s and were included in the comprehensive plan and now obsolete because the Town Board passed a resolution designating such and as I understand it, the DEP adopted that.   When I think of a Hamlet, I think of Pine Hill or Phoenicia where there is Hamlet business zones, if you called every community a hamlet then you would have Hamlet business zones all through the town and the plan was not meant for that.   Our zoning is already very generous, farm stands are aloud, maybe not as expansive as they want, hotels, motels are aloud in a residential zone and home occupations both class one and class two and class two are aloud outside the home.    She went on to say that farm stands should be included in Home occupations to keep within the character of the plan.

 

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Patricia Ellison –  I live in Phoenicia, I am attorney and as most of you know I have represented Hanover Farms, so I want to state that on the onset.  My comments are not directly directed at Hanover Farms.  What I want to talk about is the area to be rezoned in and around Mt. Tremper.  I think that the Town Board and the community should consider this on its’ own merit quite frankly without regard the impact that it might have on Hanover Farms and Alyce & Rogers Stand although true fully it would help both of them.  What we need to look at in my opinion is what is already present on the land in the Mt. Tremper area.  Right now we have commercially zoned land in Mt. Tremper, but it is not on Route 28, it actually runs from the intersection of Route 28 and Route 212 down to Wittenberg Road.   That is all commercial and there is only one automotive business there unless you class the Post Office as a business and the rest is residential on very small lots with virtually no parking, but you could have someone come in there and open a business and it would be legal.  No go around the corner on Route 28 and there are Farm Stands, motels and a very scenic bus barn that is commercial now does that make a lot of sense. I feel that the community needs additional land to be zoned commercial that could be developed within reasonable limits and I feel that the Town Board through zoning amendments could ensure that we don’t get big box stores or strip malls.  Thank you.

 

Richard Schaedle – Pine Hill, I just want to say that I agree with all the letters that you read in opposition to the rezoning.  I remember when 28 was put in and it was put in to avoid the Hamlets so that the business would be retained in the Hamlets and 28 would be a conduit to get from New York City, Long Island, Kingston to the Catskills, it made the travel time at least a ½ hour difference between Kingston and Pine Hill and also the speed limit was 55 miles per hour and look what has happened it is now 45 miles per hour in some places, is this going to happen in Shandaken also.  Is it going to increase the time again to go to Kingston and then there are the safety factors.  Thank you.

 

Michael Ruane – of Shandaken and he is speaking in opposition of the new zoning change.  I am really asking the Town Board for prudence.  I am an engineer and I have worked with developers and when zoning changes are proposed they are usually moving towards a more liberal direction and I think we have no better example of that then the 10 year problem with the farm stand pushing against the current residential zoning.  To move to a Business Highway B zoning moves more pressure towards commercial development along this strip.  Mt. Tremper sees about 7,000 cars per day, Pine Hill sees about half that, this is our gateway, this is the first impression of Shandaken.  It is the most attractive place for commercial development, which would lead us down a road not consistent with the town, our sense of Hamlets or of the scenic byway designation.  I would urge you to be very cautious before going forward with this change, I think we have other means at our disposal to deal with farm stand issues and it would be wise to look further at those.

 

Tom Rinaldo – This is about what makes sense for Shandaken, it is not about farm stands, if it was an issue about farm stands, It seems that most of the residents are pretty much in favor of what both farm stands are doing, there are some disagreements around the edges, but there are ways to get around that to get things done.    He said that when you are too close to something you really don’t see it.  Shandaken is a special place, and we do not need commercial development on Route 28, we need people to discover our Hamlets.   He also said that when they came here from California they looked in many states and Hamlets when they found Phoenicia.

 

 

 

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Janet Klugiewicz –  I would like to talk about the scenic byway designation and the fact that it is in danger by this zoning change.  Just because it does not preclude that change does not mean we should do something.  Just because you can do something does not mean you aught, to do it.  There are two farm stands now, a bus barn and 2 motels and you don’t take a strip and degrade all of it because you have five businesses, we have a lot there that is worth preserving.  We have to realize what a gamete is, it is something really special that we should cherish, because once it is gone, we cannot get it back and there are other things that once they are gone you can’t get them back, I think you all know what I mean.  So, I a line myself for those that want to preserve and not see a zoning change.

 

Karen Thomas-Malloy – I live in Mt. Tremper and I support the farm stand as many of us do, I live across the street from the farm stand so it directly affects me, we only bought our home a year ago.  I support the farm stand there has to be a way to make it work, but I am on the fence about this zoning change, because I do not want to see another gas station, 7-11 or another bus garage some day.  We know that we have a farm stand rule and we know that Al (Mr. Higley) pushed the limits of it, but what he has there is also a tourist attraction, when people come to visit, the first place they want to go is to the farm stand and they are coming from New Jersey and Connecticut, so this is already a draw and part of that gateway they spoke about.   May be there is a way we can make his space work and change the residential area to commercial.  Thank you.

 

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Eric Hansen – I live in the Town of Shandaken and I am for the zone change to so that all of the businesses in that area can come into compliance.  I don’t know what everyone is afraid of, it is not going to change the scenic byway designation, we have already heard from that gentleman.  I am tired of the people saying that the beauty in Shandaken is along 28, why don’t they go up the hills, go to the rivers and out in the woods, they only see out their windows.  A byway is fine, I love it, but economic time here are bad, there is over 50 mortgage foreclosures in Shandaken and that is more then Kingston, it is not right, and I urge the Town Board to work with the Planning Board on the zone change they are trying to start.

 

Zdenek Marek – Remember Long Island, I bought a home in Long Island in 1964, it was forests and nice meadows, the benefactors, developers and real estate managed to change the zoning and you know what they paved over the Long Island, people go there, there are not trees in site.   Look, Phoenicia is the most beautiful town in the whole United States.

 

Marueen Nagy – I am writing to express my opposition to the rezoning of Route 28 in Mt. Tremper to Commercial.  I believe that such an action would be wrong for Shandaken for several reasons.

1.        It threatens to damage a precious resource the scenic beauty of Route 28 by inviting commercial development.

2.       It would further drain activity from surrounding Hamlets

3.       It would replace a spectacular day in Shandaken with possibly a mediocre one, if commercial strips in Boiceville, Ashokan, and West Hurley are any indication

There is significant opposition in the community to rezoning, this by its’ self is reason for you to hesitate and tread very carefully in considering a dramatic change which would be difficult to undo.  In a recent postal patrons letter Mrs Gailes refers to, “opponents to change” the people that she refers to I bet are rather supporters of change as long as it is a direct change in line with the express wishes of the Town, the Comprehensive Plan to encourage development in the Hamlets.  Please be mindful of your duties as elected officials to follow the intent of the comprehensive plan and preserve current zoning.  Thank you.

 

David Lionel – Well, I was hoping we would have a win, win everybody likes their farm stands and their function, but then there was 98% of those e-mails that expressed the danger of rezoning, so it sounds like a farm stand law is about as far as it ought to go and seems though that could be crafted in a way to make Al happy and I don’t know if the other farm stand is going to survive, medical reasons, who knows what that means.    We all have the same ideas here, lets’ get this done, it should be a win, win, you have good concepts, but where are they going after 7 years.

 

James Krueger – I live and work in Shandaken, I chaired the now debunked economic committee, as well

as the Central Catskills collaborative and the Pine Hill Main Street initiative, I am CFO of the Ashokan

foundation, a member of the Children’s’ Advocacy Network and recently declined an invitation to be

part of the MARK project because I am already doing too much.  I also sit on the Recreation Committee

and I have a hand in the success of the Pine Hill Community Center, a true grass roots community

organization.  I only say this because I am an active, experienced and informed citizen.  I am not here to

represent any of these organizations but take sole responsibility or my comments as a law abiding

citizen of this town.  I would like to say a few things about what the issue this evening is about and what

it is not about.    First, it is not about the farm stand, it has nothing to do with farm stands and

everything to do with a radical change in zoning.  The change that both flies in the face of both the

Town’s and the county’s comprehensive plan.  Taking what I believe to be wise and sensible ques from

what community plans have long known both areas call for the development of the areas already zoned

commercial.   Especially our main streets, first and foremost.   The County is currently working very

closely with two communities  Phoenicia and Pine Hill, in order for these communities to develop

strategic plans that will help them grow as commercial centers and as tourist destinations.    Diluting

these hubs by expanding commercial zoning along Route 28 is not only unwise but antithetical  to these

two communities whose endeavors  with the Town’s support , will benefit everyone.   He went on to say

that  making Route 28 Commercial would be a mistake and ruin the pristine beauty of the area.     He

also said that Al should have started his business a 100 feet up the road in a commercial area.   He also

had comments on Mrs. Gailes’ letter.

 

Alfred Higley Jr. –  I would like to thank everyone for coming and thank the Town Board for having this

meeting.   I want to go back to want Tim (Councilman Malloy) had said,  that he thinks there can be a

compromise, unfortunately we sat down with the last Town Board and went through this, we sat down

and we hacked out a deal, with a different administration, but some of the same board members are

here.  The deal they made then, they reneged on.   They did not do that deal, they went and did

something on their own.    I think that Tim, you and Doris (Councilman Bartlett) are right, I think this is a

simple deal, I think we can come to a compromise, we will give it one more try.

 

 

 

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Sofie Franzin – I do come from Long Island, which is totally wiped out, they have paved over the Pine

Barrens.   I don’t understand why the issue of two farm stands has come to this.  I shop there regularly,

some ladies like to shop there because Mr. Higley will throw in an extra banana.    I feel that this is a

simple matter and should not have come to this.  I also feel that rezoning is a devastating mistake.

All I have to say is, please people let’s  pull it together and not kill something that is really working.

 

Eve Smith – I have been listening very closely.  I think that everyone wants to preserve the beauty, and I

think it is a little far fetched that big box stores, etc. will move in.  I am here to represent a lot of people

that are here and make their living here and some by the skin of their teeth.    I think we need more jobs

and more business here.   I would like to remind you that Lucky Chocolates tried to open a business here

and was denied.  That would have been a nice business to have here.    We can make this a destination

with nice businesses and more jobs for the health of the community.

 

Patricia Ruane – Shandaken,  I appreciate the conversation, I just want to speak to Alfred’s point and to

the sentiment that will work to find a solution that will be the best for the Town and for the farm stand.

This should be a win, win and not a compromise.  The Board should be very  clear and courages about

the values that it will put forward.   It should not be a compromise.

 

Susan Oyama – Highmount,   I have a question, speaking to Al, you said that rezoning would benefit both

farm stands.  May I ask, how will it benefit Alyce and Rogers?    Supervisor said that she could speak to

Ms. Ellison after the meeting.

 

Supervisor Stanley – Thank you for coming out tonight, I am sure you have listened to everyone’s’

comments and everyone had stated their comments.  Thank you everyone for being civil tonight.

 

Motion by Supervisor Stanley to close meeting before it starts to fall apart, seconded by Councilman